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# Hmong dating traditions

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Americans who don't respect Hmong culture may find it weird and primitive, but it's no more weird than American culture. I have sent the link to your site to many of my friends, families, and co-workers. There isn't any country in the whole world that will listen to and help the Hmong like the U. However trying to raise fifty chickens in their basement wasn't under freedom of religion especially as they were selling and eating those chickens.\
&#x20;![hmong dating traditions](https://media.npr.org/assets/img/2017/11/27/img_8875_wide-5d7868c618a56410978a9ae302ef2a749adc80f0-s400.jpg)\


Given the negative effects of these teenage marriages on the girls, local authorities are doing nobody a favor by hmong dating traditions this practice continue. Some practices involving marriage are one area of potential trouble. This is not a normal event for the Hmong people. Hmong elements are traditionally not individualistically blocked, but identify the road as a rocker of the direction, clan and community. I could attest to how one forgot a second language under stress such as being confronted by a police officer. But they still have their culture that gives them identify, that caballeros out many steps for them in life.

On this page, we explore some of the problems that occur when Hmong culture clashes with mainstream society in the United States. However trying to raise fifty chickens in their basement wasn't under freedom of religion especially as they were selling and eating those chickens. When I was about 9-10 years old, I remembered an American helicopter pilot came to our village in Samnuen, Laos.\
&#x20;![hmong dating traditions](http://ancientartifax.com/images/thai_vase.jpg)\


&#x20;\- To Americans, this looks like little more than old-fashioned adultery, and that's how I see it, too.\
&#x20;![hmong dating traditions](http://www.mancrushes.com/sites/default/files/rainie-yang-2013-6.jpg)\


On this page, we explore some of the problems that occur when Hmong culture clashes with mainstream society in the United States. My desire is to reduce bigotry, increase understanding, and help the Hmong people move forward in this country. The advice given on this page reflects my views and experience. I am not a professional therapist, social worker, or professional specialist in social issues, so please recognize that my views may be subject to various biases and errors. Please let me know if you feel I have made an error in my observations or analysis. All text and photos are copyright © 2013-2105, Jeff Lindsay. For the older generation of Hmong people, life in America can be a terrible and lonely journey. They are far from their homeland, far from the good agrarian life in the beautiful hills of Laos. They have suffered the ravages of war and loss, and now live in a strange country with strange values and a language that they will never learn. The pain has been too great. Some of them stare out the window and remember the past, and mourn for their loss, for their lonely separation from their home. Others are trying hard to adapt, to learn new ways and deal with a new culture and language. But they still have their culture that gives them identify, that spells out many steps for them in life. Americans who don't respect Hmong culture may find it weird and primitive, but it's no more weird than American culture. Unfortunately, there are aspects of Hmong culture that clash sharply with American ways, and sometimes American law. Both Hmong people and the rest of us in America need to understand these differences if we are to work better together. Here are some areas of potential cultural conflict that I discuss on this page: Clans and Strong Family Ties Family is one of the most important things in Hmong culture, and that's very healthy. Americans are often surprised to see how extensive family ties are, with large networks of cousins and other relatives working together. Each unique surname in Hmong culture is part of a clan. There is the Vang clan, the Lee clan, the Moua clan, etc. The clans work to advance the needs of their members and form a network that brings many families together. Marriage within a clan is forbidden, so a Moua cannot marry a Moua, but must find someone with a different last name. But marriage forms bonds between many groups outside the clan. Extended families, with numerous cousins and uncles and aunts, are a basic part of Hmong life. Hmong people sometimes feel sad for us Americans, who tend to scatter all over the country without a support group of extensive family ties around us. Hmong people are very protective of their families and tend to live together as extended families, with grandparents, children, and grandchildren often under one roof. I think this is a very healthy aspect of Hmong culture. Hmong people care for their own and show a lot of dedication to their family members across generations. The different emphasis on family ties sometimes leads to some confusion between modern American and Hmong culture. Americans often don't understand why there are such big gatherings of Hmong people when there is a funeral or wedding or other event. I think Americans would do well to learn more from Hmong people about strengthening family organizations and caring for each other. Marriage While family ties are quite strong in Hmong culture, there are some aspects to family life that cause conflict and even serious legal problems for some Hmong people in the United States. Some practices involving marriage are one area of potential trouble. In the old country, where life was based on farming and involved short life spans, children were essential for one's economic security, so large families and early marriage was the norm. It still is in much of Hmong culture. Historically, Hmong girls typically marry starting at about age 13 or 14, often marrying older husbands. In the United States, this cultural pattern is typically in conflict with the law. While teenage marriage is still common in Hmong society in the U. In Wisconsin, for example, it is illegal to marry under age 16, and those age 16 or 17 still need parental permission to become legally married. In some cases, the Hmong-style marriage qualifies as sexual child abuse, and some of the older men have been prosecuted. Unfortunately for many Hmong women, their marriages are often done under rules of Hmong culture and not through legal U. This can make life especially difficult if there is a divorce, since they will have a harder time asserting their rights without the benefit of a recorded legal marriage. Hmong women abandoned by their husbands and neglected by the US legal system are one of the most painful artifacts of the cultural gap between Hmong and American society. I would encourage Hmong parents to teach their daughters not to marry too young, and always make sure that the marriage is legal and licensed. Unfortunately, one important part of Hmong culture may motivate some parents to neglect these important issues. I refer to the dowry that a man must pay to the girl's family to complete the marriage. For some, that may be a big incentive to encourage early marriage to an older, wealthier man. On the other hand, the girl's family pays for the big feast and party that is held to celebrate the marriage, and that can eat up much of the dowry, so there may not be much of a profit motive in most cases. Given the negative effects of these teenage marriages on the girls, local authorities are doing nobody a favor by letting this practice continue. A fourteen-year-old wife may have two kids by age 16 or 17, and will usually not be able to complete high school. Her educational opportunities are often destroyed. And the fun and freedom they hoped to find are replaced by what can be a hellish reality. Hmong culture also occasionally accepts forms of polygamy, which can also lead to big trouble in Western countries. To Americans, this looks like little more than old-fashioned adultery, and that's how I see it, too. The second wife tends to get a lot of attention and money, leaving the first wife in a difficult position. Few Hmong women feel they can challenge these things and tend not to use the legal resources that may be available to them. I think we need to help Hmong women better understand and assert their rights. Polygamy, though relatively uncommon now, is a serious problem when it occurs. The first wife is often aware of the new relationship, and sometimes it is rubbed in her face to make her feel even worse and lower than she already does. Anglo or Hmong, adultery is for scum. It's a problem for both cultures, of course. In Hmong culture, since it is more visible, it's especially problematic. Whole families grow up knowing that their father is married to another woman, and that their mother is either a neglected first wife or an illicit second wife. Courtship In traditional Hmong culture, dating is not like it is in the United States. Boys and girls tend to stay apart more, with courtship involving more input from parents and more formal rituals. But when a boy decided he is going to marry a girl, they will often go away together and start living as man and wife yes, that means sexual relations , and then a week or two later have the wedding ceremony. Again, this can often mean that one or more minors are having sex, and can lead to legal problems and even jail for an older boy. For Hmong living in the United States, it is now important to understand the law and put an end to improper teenage marriage, largely for the benefit and protection of the girl. One of the real problems here is the non-uniform enforcement of the law by local officials. In the Fox Cities of Wisconsin, for example, some Hmong men have felony convictions for sex with a minor when they married an underage wife, while school and city officials in other cases seem to ignore some cases where a girl's life may be seriously harmed by her early marriage. From my ties to the Hmong community, it is obvious that no clear message has been sent. Frankly, I think it would help keep some young girls out of serious trouble and disappointment to more strictly enforce the law. Some of these girls feel pressured to accept marriages they really don't want. If the law were on their side, they might be able to say no and continue with education and social growth until they were prepared to marry the right man for them, the one they choose, when they were ready. The Trouble with Teenagers Especially Teenage Girls Some outstanding Wisconsin Hmong girls at a New Years' Celebration in Appleton, Dec. In Hmong culture, the oldest girl in the home had tremendous responsibilities. The level of responsibility is increased when the mother has to be away after school working in a factory or other job. And unfortunately, second and third shifts tend to be the jobs that Hmong women are most likely to get. Thus, we have many oldest girls in Hmong families in the U. Hmong teenagers in general are often in a no-man's land between traditional Hmong ways and traditional American teenager ways, and may feel like they don't really fit anywhere. It can be especially hard for the oldest daughter in a Hmong household. In many cases, the result can be rebellion and even running away by the oldest daughter. Running away is one of the most dangerous things for a teenage girl to do, often resulting in sexual exploitation or other problems. Here is an area where good counseling of students and their parents can help. Parents may need help understanding their teenagers, and the teenagers need good counsel in dealing with the frustrations and problems they face. I strongly believe that good youth programs, such as those offered by many churches and community organizations, can play an important role in helping the teenagers. And for those Hmong families that participate in a church, the youth leaders can play a role in helping them to understand the needs of youth. Housing Apartments and rented homes typically have limits on how many people can live in them, contrary to Hmong desires for everyone to be together. Ten or twelve people might live in an apartment meant for three or four people. There have also been problems with pets or especially chickens living where they aren't allowed to be. This is less of a problem than it used to be, but still crops up. Hmong groups are increasingly helping their people to understand rules and laws regarding housing, but more progress may be needed. Property Rights In the old country, the wilderness usually belonged to everyone. The idea that open land, good for hunting, might be private property is a foreign concept. Misunderstanding property rights in hunting may have contributed to the tragedy known as the Hmong hunter murders, in which a Hmong man in Wisconsin had a violent confrontation with several Anglo hunters who wanted him off their property. He killed six people - a terrible tragedy. On the other hand, basic concepts of private property and personal freedom are an essential part of Hmong culture, one that has been at odds with the Communist regime ruling Laos with an iron hand. Understanding the Hmong love for freedom is an important step in appreciating how much America has in common with Hmong culture. Racial Tension and Isolation In the United States, there is still significant prejudice against the Hmong people, though many people are reaching out to them. But there are pockets of people who think of them as threats. That kind of ignorance is one of the problems that came from the secrecy of our operations in Laos during Vietnam War. The sacrifices of the Hmong people for America have not been fully realized, and ignorance makes it easier for racial tensions to grow. Poor racial attitudes are not a problem for whites only. There are negative attitudes of some Hmong toward white society also. Whatever problems the Hmong people face from some whites should not condemn all of them, or make Hmong people hesitant to form friendships outside of their culture. Racial isolation, however, is a serious problem. Some Hmong people tend to seek out other Hmong or other Asians for friends, and seem nervous around whites, and the same tendency applies to many whites as well. We need more social ties across our cultures, more friendships and partnerships between all races. For the Hmong people, shyness around whites may hold them back from the kind of relationships and networking that can be essential for success in American life. Let's all reach out and make more friendships, regardless of race and cultural differences. These don't have to be strong or close ties - casual ties and acquaintances can still be very helpful. The following comments are taken from email from Lora Lee Fry, received April 21, 2003, and used with permission. I hope others will emulate her compassionate attitude. I remember my first meeting with the local association of Hmong in the neighborhood. I don't know who was more curious: me, a blonde, blue-eyed, woman of German, Norwegian, Scot, and Cheyenne descent. Or the group of about fifty Asian men who had gathered there. I knew nothing about them and there was little in the way of reference material. So I resorted to what I would do in my Native American communities and asked if someone could direct me to some elders who would be willing to help me learn. I found several wonderful men to help as translators including Joua Kao Vang and others. I would spend an hour or two a day, off duty three of four days a week with various men and women and a translator while they told me of history, tradition and recounted harrowing stories of escapes and the secret war. I was invited to naming ceremonies, healing ceremonies, wedding, funeral, Hmong New Year, etc. I had to tell one family they couldn't raise chickens in the basement of their center city apartment. However trying to raise fifty chickens in their basement wasn't under freedom of religion especially as they were selling and eating those chickens. I went on to talk to them about how it was not sanitary and healthy to do so in crowded city situations. They understood and in a few days had disposed of the chickens. In the meantime, I located several farmers who were willing to provide chickens, pigs, and even cattle for religious ceremonies at practically their cost for raising them if the animals were for religious ceremonies. The farmers even provided a place to perform any rituals. I worked on getting some of the families community garden plots including my chicken family. They now own a small farm and are doing quite well and sell at the local farmers market. I found most of the things they got in trouble legally for were out of ignorance and not malice. A local attorney who worked pro bono and I set up classes about American law and what to do if you got a ticket. The first two were sparsely attended, after that there was standing room only. I also gave inservice classes at the police department about the Hmong and brought in speakers from their community. I could attest to how one forgot a second language under stress such as being confronted by a police officer. I had lived in Germany and did not speak a word of German the day I arrived. About two years later, I was in an accident. Although my German was quite fluent, I could not remember one word at the accident. It was anything but convenient. I loved my time working with the Hmong. I found them remarkable. They were courageous, polite, friendly, eager to learn, and so lonely for home. The dreams of the older Hmong of returning home, like those of so many immigrants before, would never be for most of them. As their children became Americans who never saw or had a memory of Laos, you could see the pain in the parents faces knowing they would never return. They work to preserve language and culture and have added so much to the tapestry of life here in Wisconsin. I would have done anything for information that is available on the web and in libraries today back in 1986. Lora Lee Fry asked that I mention name of an attorney who made many efforts to help with the Hmong people. The attorney was John Beaudin, a member of the Lac Courte Oreilles Anishinabe Ojibwe or Chippewa tribe in northern Wisconsin, who sadly passed away in 1993 from cancer only 46 years old. I had never done any public speaking, worked with any groups problem solving, taught a class, etc. He reminded me of Native American traditions and learning from elders. Most of the ideas and approaches were from him. He and his wife became two of the best friends I have ever had. Things would not have been possible without him. Police officers, lawyers, ministers, neighbors, whoever you are, I salute those who treat newcomers like the Hmong with kindness and respect. Thanks, Lora, for letting me share your memories of working with the Hmong. In November of 2004, a Hmong man, Chai Vang from St. Paul, Minnesota, was hunting in Wisconsin, sitting in a tree stand that other hunters had made. When the hunters that had made the stand showed up, an argument ensued. The details are unclear, but Chai Vang appears to have snapped and opened fire on the group, killing some right away. One man radioed to their base group for help, and three other hunters ran onto the scene, two of which were also shot and killed. In the end, Chai Vang killed six Anglos and left a couple others injured. He was apprehended later and is now being questioned. We do not know the full story yet, and we must avoid thinking like a lynch mob. However, his story actually agrees with the story of the survivors except for a couple of points: who fired the first shot, and whether the Anglo hunters made racist comments before the violence began. Chai Vang says the group made racial slurs against him and threatened him, and that one of the other hunters shot at him, striking the ground about 30 feet away. The survivors deny this and say that he fired first. Even if Chai's story is correct, shooting into the ground 30 feet away hardly justifies shooting directly at people and killing six mostly unarmed men, in my opinion I understand there was only one gun among them. It seems like a clear case of murder - but we must wait for a jury verdict. But I think we all agree that even if there was racism and bad behavior on the part of other people, this would never justify violence. We must wait for the details to unfold through fair legal processes - I've had several people non-Hmong tell me that there may be more than meets the eye to this story. Importantly, the Hmong community is not making excuses for his action, and strongly condemns the killings. Both Anglos and Hmong grieve over what happened. This incident is a bizarre exception that is in no way characteristic of Hmong people and culture. Hmong hunters and Hmong people in general do not have a track record of striking out in violence against whites. They are not crazies who can be easily provoked into murder. However, based on the mail I have received from whites on this topic, it is clear that racial tensions have been greatly strained, and that racism is alive and well among us. I have been contacted by a number of people who use Chai Vang's crime as an excuse to vilify the entire Hmong people or Asians in general. Here are some actual e-mails I have received in the latter half of November 2004. For each of these, please recognize that there are many people in the US with the same names, so don't assume that someone you know of the same name is the one who sent the email. Also, the names given may not be their real names. The first one comes from a person who identifies himself as Mark Lawrence; his note was received on Nov. The silent majority in America would prefer that all these worthless leeches go back to Laos. If they can't understand the concept of private property and respect landowner rights then they are in the wrong country. It's quite obvious to me why the Laotian got wants to exterminate this vermin. Too bad this whole mess didn't perish in the Vietnam War. What a pathetic collection of human garbage this group is, particularly their poster boy that's gonna fry in the chair when the authorities get done with him. When they execute this psycho, you will hear the celebrations from all over the United States. Here is one from Donald Petzold, received Nov. We cannot afford to support these kind of people who do not have any VALUES. They bring their culture, NOT AMERICAN, with them. YOU need to go live among them. You liberals are either insane, stupid or truly evil. Again, you need to go live with your own people. My reply: Uh, Sherrie - they are Americans, and we do live with them, like it or not. May I remind you that you are descended from foreigners who came to this land UNINVITED and brought a foreign culture here. Our government that represents us invited the Hmong people here after we messed things up for them in their land. They are here now, and we need to learn to work with them and help them as new fellow Americans. Anger and racism is not going to do any good. Fischer I received this: haven't enough american's died at the hands of these killers? This appears to be the common mistake of confusing the Hmong for the enemies Americans fought in the Vietnam War. And even then, the war is over, Americans! Germans, Vietnamese, North Koreans, and even the English have all been our enemies at one time or the other remember British aggression in the War of Independence and the War of 1812? On the other hand, I received a thoughtful message from Vince Manning name used with permission who points to some issues that some Hmong people may need to resolve. Here is his thoughtful message from Nov. I'm emailing you with the hope that you can somehow influence the Hmong hunters in California where resentment is growing. The Hmong have a poor reputation among campers, backpackers and hunters in the Ventana Wilderness as well as the neighboring forest areas. Many people who love the area are angry and resentful of Hmong hunters who leave ALL their trash and show very little regard for our hunting laws. It is frustrating to arrive at a usually pristine site and find an ugly mess. It is frustrating for a hunter who follows regulations to see a Hmong hunter blatantly disregard them. I witnessed a friendly attempt to educate three Hmong we came across about the ethic of not littering. They didn't seem interested and all of a sudden pretended not to understand English. I myself do not hunt, but know the Hmong out here have a reputation for shooting any animal that moves regardless of season or location. A friend witnessed two Hmong shooting just a few feet from a road. When he confronted them in a respectful manner, they acted confused perhaps they didn't speak English and then ignored him. It is easy to get away with these transgressions out here because the Forest Service is severely under funded as well as the Department of Fish and Game so there is no emphasis on enforcement. I have not heard of trespassing problems though. Your website instilled sympathy in me for the plight of Hmong folk. Their plight will not improve though if they refuse to abide by the same laws and ethics that the rest of us must. Not understanding our ways is one thing but this excuse can only be valid for so long before it wears thin. It appears to many users of the Los Padres National Forest that Hmong hunters are not trying to understand or just don't want to. Hopefully the younger generation will be more adaptable. Thanks in advance for any effort you make to convey this to Hmong folk in California. I will try to educate friends and members of the Ventana Wilderness Alliance in the sad struggle of the Hmong due to America's betrayal and ill-conceived war. I hope all of you Hmong campers and hunters will pay attention to the concerns raised in the message above. Please go the extra mile to earn the respect of others. While I have gone camping several with Hmong people and saw no obvious problems in behavior, in cleanliness, or in respect for the environment and the camp site, the Hmong people I was with probably had been trained in camping etiquette by other experienced campers, and some of them had kids who had been exposed to Boy Scout camping. If you aren't aware of the basic rules of camping and so forth that are followed by the Scouts and other experienced outdoorsmen, please ask and learn! A voice of reason hailing from New England sent me this response on Nov. As an example of the response in the Hmong community, here is a note received Nov. No matter what happened, six people should not have lost their lives. My heart goes out to the victims, their families and friends. I am with you. As for the effect that the hunter murders have on the Hmong people, consider this message from Dec. I have sent the link to your site to many of my friends, families, and co-workers. Your voice shines a light in the darkness for our people. We cannot fully express our gratitude to you. I live in California, and in light of all the events that has happened within the last month with the tragedy in Wisconsin, things have not been so positive for the Hmong. My husband listens to AM radio in the mornings and evenings on his commute to and from work and he has told me of the many negative reactions that people have expressed towards the Hmong because of this tragedy. We have people of other races and ethnic backgrounds mainly white who came on the radio and publicly say that the Hmong are savages who would hunt, kill, and eat anything that moves - even dogs and cats. Conservative talk show hosts, such as Michael Savage, repeatedly bash the Hmong for this incident. It is a depressing and hopeless time to be a Hmong. However, with voices like yours, I am sure that we can get through these difficulties. I am proud to be Hmong... I am moreso proud to be an American. Additional comments are on my. Other crimes involving Hmong people tend to get additional publicity in some areas. Yes, there are some social problems among the Hmong people, as with all parts of society, and these must be put in the proper perspective. The Hmong community is seeking to overcome some of the problems they face. But there have been some sad setbacks. For example, the Hmong community in my area is reeling after a tragic murder-suicide by a Hmong man in Oshkosh in April 2006. The story includes a lengthy standoff with police and grave danger faced by a surviving woman hiding in a closet, communicating with the police by cell phone. A high-tech robot was brought in to survey the house to help the police make plans for their assault, but the murderer had already killed himself and his wife by then. This is not a normal event for the Hmong people! It is a rare tragedy, but even one such incident is far too many. In my interactions with the Hmong community in the United States, I have found cause for hope but also cause for great sorrow. Some of the Hmong are moving forwards and striving to be the best they can be, but others remain trapped in ways of thinking and living that are out of place in today's world. And there are some things that should be held as examples to the rest of us. Both cultures need to become less isolated from one another and work together to build a healthier society. Comments from Readers Here is one of many, received March 2006, in response to a post on : This is a good put together photos and writing about the Hmong New Year. A Hmong man like me cannot even do a good job like this. I am sure all Hmong readers love to read this site. You did an excellent job, my dearest American friend. I want to share this personal story to this American friend. I am 42 years old now. When I was about 9-10 years old, I remembered an American helicopter pilot came to our village in Samnuen, Laos. My dad and the rest of the men in the village got together and talked about how to take care of this American man. They agreed that each family had to donate a chicken to make food for the American friend because he was from a country like heaven. We kids followed him every where he went. He looked so strange but nice at the same time. The village treated him and respected him like a king. I have not seen any Hmong person who would not like this man. You know, I was never imagined that I would have a chance to see a heavenly country like this America. Thanks god that we poor Hmong people got to know American service men during the war and had always kept the strong relationship with the Americans until these days. I know that our people did a good job for American men during the war, but in return, America has provided freedom, opportunity, other legal, social and political assistance to the Hmong world wide. There isn't any country in the whole world that will listen to and help the Hmong like the U. An excellent resource about the wave of migration in 2004 from the last refugee camp in Thailand, complete with photogalleries and a blog. This was published on Aug. A collection of Jeff Lindsay's photographs of Hmong people from around Appleton, Wisconsin. If that fails, try. A new collection of selected comments started in 2005. A non-profit organization working to help the Hmong people in Minnesota. A large source of Hmong information. Link is through TinyUrl. Lots of good resources related to the Hmong people and Hmong culture. Mark Pfeifer is the Webmaster. See, for example, their article, in the Hmong Studies Journal Vol. Link is via TinyUrl. A non-profit organization working to help the Hmong people in Minnesota. This site provides a lot of information about the war in Laos and the contributions of the Hmong from someone who knows what he's talking about. Link is to www. Lee is a Ph. Link is to garyyialee. Information on the important book by Dr. Sucheng Chan, including Published by Temple University Press, 1994. This book looks at the lives of several Hmong immigrants to the U. Lee, Hmong Studies Journal, 12: 1-20 2011 Good discussion of academic progress by Hmong students and ways to help them succeed more in college. Link is to hmongstudies. By Catherine Falk, archived article. Good overview of the traditional cycles of life in Hmong society in Laos. Kennedy Award for the Disadvantaged. This site features 35 photos and can best be viewed in fullscreen mode. The story of Hmong women serving as nurses during the terrible secret war in Laos. Lots of good resources related to the Hmong people and Hmong culture. Dealing with refugee crises all over the world, working to protect and assist refugees. Articles by Anthony C. LoBaido in : - another excellent article in the , with additional links. A moving poem in English by Phong Lee. It captures some of the poignant feelings of the Hmong people displaced from their homeland. This page is in Hmong. In writing, tones are indicated by the final letter in the word b,g,m,s,v,d, or nothing. It's a fun language. Cathy Bao Bean, born in China, provides help for people dealing with cultural diversity in the United States. She is the author of The Chopsticks-Fork Principle, A Memoir and Manual, which is about how she and her husband raised their Asian-Caucasian son to be at least bi-cultural. Link is to www. Summary of an Eagle Scout project for Peter Lee of Appleton, Wisconsin during 2002-2003. I was the advisor for Peter in this project.
